re: "The shrillness of the left is horrible and nothing on the right is close to it."

Skim down Michelle's blog to 10/19:

"...Caught a few minutes of Teresa Heinz Kerry on ABC's The View earlier this morning. I've been tough on her and she has been as unhinged and unraveled as I said she would be during most of the campaign. But today she just seemed pitiful...."

Okay, so in about 5 seconds I found a quote that Malkin publicly calls Kerry's wife "unhinged," "unraveled," and "pitiful."

If you can't see the problems of shrillness on both sides, then I don't think you're being cooly analytical enough. If you want me to spend 10 seconds to find more quotes, I'm sure I could curl both our hair so that our wives wouldn't recognize us.

As to the SwiftyLiars, these guys have been debunked countless times as liars. There's no need to give them any respect. They've given Kerry, a war hero, only slime and hatred in my opinion. What goes around, comes around.

Tom:

Can you name who 'debunked' the SwiftBoat Vets' claim?

Can you name when these claims were debunked?

Can you name how each of the SwiftBoat Vets' claims were debunked?

?????

Didn't think so.

Jack.

Tom,

Did you see O'Donnell last night (http://www.dailyrecycler.com/blog/2004/10/breakdown.html)? Did you see Matthews attack Malkin? Have you heard of the attacks against Republican headquarters? Take a look at some examples of some meltdowns here http://polipundit.com/index.php?p=4726.

Show me some examples of where someone is just shouting down another person and not letting them answer questions or try and make a point.

Cheers,
Tim

Jack,
Are you kidding?

Tim,
First, I want to say I was stupid to say that "you're not being cooly analytical enough." That was my bonehead, silly, pretentious statement of the day, my friend. A bit like me going goose hunting a la Kerry. Please forgive my dull-witted excess. My ride in the tank with Dukakis. I think this election is getting to my nerves too much.

A couple family things to take care of, and I'll take a look at the sites you mention and respond....with a bit more civility. As my son would say, I'll take a chill-pill.
----------
But seriously, Jack...take a run through http://mediamatters.org, www.talkingpointsmemo.com , or any of the NYT debunking on the Swifties. You might not accept them, but that's the kind of stuff I'm reading. Honestly, the Swifties arguments/lies about what happened in the 60s aren't worth either of our efforts. I might as well bore you with with useless musings and partial truths about Bush's alcoholism, TANG, drunk driving, and rumors of cocaine of that era.

We have a war going on, and I understand the leading indicators of the economy are starting to tank again. Who's a better leader for the next four years? We both have our opinions.

Tom,

I find it nearly incomprehensible that you would use the NYTimes as a source for debunking anything. The NYTimes and the rest of the MSM are carrying Kerry's water and will tell any lie in order to support him. Sorry but they are not a good enough source to use to debunk the swifties. I will believe the word of 250 swifty heros that served their country proudly rather than the word of Kerry, an admitted war criminal by the way, or the MSM which is in the tank for their favorite war hero and liberal liar.

Fatman

Regardless of sniping over Kerry's medals being fake, he's been caught on Christmas in Cambodia, a possible flaw with his purple heart, and the fact that he was really only there for four months was pretty eye-opening.

I've never read the SBV stuff-I got all of the above from hearing about what Kerry had _admitted_.

It isn't Cambodia or the medals to me. I'm a Vietnam vet and it is what he did AFTER he ldft. He villified and libelled us. And I deeply resent anyone saying that we are liars now. I deeply resent it! I say that an apology is in order

The Swifties say Kerry served dishonorably.
President Bush says Kerry served honorably.
McCain says the Swifties are liars.

I believe Bush and McCain.

re Phil's statement: "I'm a Vietnam vet and it is what [Kerry] did AFTER he left. He villified and libelled us." In my opinion Phil's idea is reasonable to discuss. I'm understanding Phil to be targeting verifiable public statements and activities by Kerry after he left Vietnam. I'd love to see a post of an unedited or impartially and fairly-edited transcript of Kerry's testimony before the Senate (?) during that time, and have someone like Phil (as a vet) or a group of vets (Dems, Republicans) to discuss it. Things like how they felt then, how they feel now, the importance of those statements in the 1970s and their importance to this election.

Tim,
re: your point to me "...Show me some examples of where someone is just shouting down another person and not letting them answer questions or try and make a point...."

I believe you were scanning for good, interesting info for your blog, and came to the link http://polipundit.com/index.php?p=4726 . Okay, and then you challenge me to come up with examples on the right.

Here's why I don't think that's a useful point to discuss liberalism versus conservatism.

Let me do a parallel process for an imaginary liberal blog of mine. In a pretend posting say I claimed that the GOP were evil jerks and way worse than Democrats. You write in and essentially say, "No, they're not!"

So I post back a few hours later, in my typical pretentiously indignant style: "Yeah??? "Well, go right here http://www.evilgopbastards.com/hall_of_shame.htm ."

Then I say, "So, Tim, you just read that posting at evilgopbastards.com. Now just show me some examples of liberal Democratic administrations have Solicitor Generals who perjured themselves, a President who ran godawful deficits, a Florida secretary of state that cheats voters, with a chief justice who votes solely on the basis of right-wing ideology....blah blah blah"

And I can be smug and feel that I just proved to you how bad Republican Administrations are versus Democratic Administrations. But I really haven't proven anything except that I can link to a laundry list of rantings quickly at a partisan hack site.

And similarly, I don't feel you've made a good case at all that liberals shout louder than conservatives by linking to that polipundit.com site.

I am new to this site, and Tom seems like a regular - so I hope I don't catch it for saying he makes absolutely no sense.

Tom, are you seriously equating the performance of Lawrence O'Donnell and the blogs you and others have mentioned? O'Donnell was on TV repeating basically one word (liar) around 50 times by some counts. Blogs, on the other hand are two-way methods of communication, by their very nature. No way to shout a person down on a discussion thread.

Saying "mean" things is part of political discourse - as blogs do. Saying mean things and preventing your "opponent" from speaking is simply the opposite of discourse.

Lawrence O'Donnell behaved horribly and your defense of him is saddening. BTW Did you see him on the McLaughlin Group yesterday - nearly as bad, but mercifully shorter.

Since when does a show attack and shout down a guest. O`Donnnell is supposed to be a political non partisan stratigest..at least that is what his title shows when he speaks. Last Friday was disgraceful. To be screamed at,talked over,and ridiculed was a new low in television...If O`Donnell doesn`t apologize to O`Neill then Scarborough should do it... )`Donnell is an empty suit that should not be allowed on the air!